The Odyssey - Well, that was unnecessary.
While Christopher Nolan's "The Odyssey" has been the subject of much heated debate (or perhaps because of that debate), I thought I'd give it a shot and form my own opinion on it. I knew towards which I leaned. How could you not when yet another Westerner allows Western culture and mythos to be trampled and disregarded for no good reason. Still, I wanted to be fair.
I apologize. I just hate being on my phone at movies.
And in all fairness, Nolan's questionable casting choices do little to hinder the movie. Nor do they add to it in any meaningful way, though. Nothing seems to. Indeed, this much-talked-about film is, at best, unremarkable. Ordinary. Meh.
Just to be clear, the film itself is not bad. In fact, it was way better than I expected, and at times, I did sympathize with some of the characters. I did like Tom Holland as Telemachus, for instance. But overall, if someone else had played any of the characters, I don't think it would've made much difference. At no point did I think "oh boy, I'm glad X was cast in that role!". They were fine. Just not something to write home about.
Which, ironically, I'm doing here in a way. But then again, it is the Internet, and we all feel compelled to have an opinion and make our voice heard, huh.
Which I guess is an even more interesting part of it - how the Internet turned an entirely average movie into a big, hot issue that everybody's talking about. I get (obviously) the critique on the right.
No, Nolan had no good reason to go DEI and not cast an accurate-looking cast all-around. The fact that he put a couple of Black, Asian and Hispanic dudes into the mix added nothing to the story. What it does risk doing, however, is diminishing this beautiful culture that we (broadly the Western World) have built upon. You would not see a couple of white dudes hanging out in a movie about African deities and myth. That would be appropriation. The fact that we so lightly allow our own precious history and culture to be appropriated has already bit us in the ass.
Royally.
But then, Nolan doesn't seem to count the gods much either way. Even Athena is nothing more than a PTSD vision for poor old Odysseus. Athena. Who fucking guides the dude back to Ithaca.
There is an interesting bit, though, that I understand and appreciate from a storytelling perspective. Throughout the film, the graceless suitors of Penelope keep invoking "Zeus's Law" (treat others as you would be treated, basically), only for Odysseus to have a breakdown at the end, decrying his own transgression of that Law via the Trojan Horse.
Now, that's actually a good point in a way, isn't it? We have come a sad, far way from the time when you could rely on the basic human goodness and common decency of your neighbor. How much a stupid B movie has managed to divide and enrage the Internet (and pit us one against the other) is a perfect example of that. In the film, Odysseus mourns the death of civilization. And indeed, it certainly often seems we are letting ours die.
On the other hand, I don't know how I feel about the message that war is despicable and we should now scorn our once heroes and legends. When I was a kid, Odysseus was a cunning, admirable hero. Are we going to throw these into the mud, too?
It is despcable. And very slowly we (the West) are inching our way to a new point. we are evolving. but we haven't evolved yet. And I think we're in a very dire and dangerous position right now. We keep having this impression of ourselves as nuanced and evolved, moved beyond the horrors of war and dog eats dog. I get it. Especially as an artist, but also as a human, I lack the stomach for such things and suffer for injustice bitterly.
At the same time, maybe it's not in our best interest as a culture (while we are still a culture) to throw down our "weapons", be they only mental. The heroes we revere, the stories we tell, these are important, valuable weapons. It's a signal of great hubris, convincing ourselves we are evolved past war-like mentalities. Because for one, we're not. The world changes, but not as fast as we would like to think, and us with it. And secondly, we are not surrounded by people who are past war-like mentalities. So, much like the Christian monks the Vikings once slaughtered, we may live by higher moral principles, though we may nevertheless die by the sword.
Random Instagram find when I came home. Priceless.
All in all, it's not a bad movie. Long. Some decent CGI, especially the monsters. Probably the best part, if you ask me. Definitely doesn't hold a candle to its spiritual predecessor, "Troy". Then again, few things will probably impact me (or our culture) as much as Brad Pitt's naked, athletic glory.
I just wish, for all the fuss and all the stubborn casting, he would've made a better movie. would give a whole lot less of a fuck if it was a mindblowing movie. It definitely feels like Nolan's past his artistic prime. There's no daring, no creative cheekiness in either plotting or casting. And unfortunately, the film(goers) suffers for it.
Should you see it? I don't know. If you really want to. Personally, I'd wait for it to come out on streaming. Watch Inception. Interstellar. The Dark Knight. Memento. Plenty of actually good movies to fill your days with, you know.
Great deep dive! You raised some really interesting points about how classical mythos and cultural themes were handled here. Thanks for sharing your fair and honest perspective! 🎬👍
Obama is a real person whose racial identity is known and tied to history, Odysseus is part of an oral tradition that changed many times before it got to be written down (here's a really interesting review of the various English translations from the Greek). Nolan has taken a universal story - Hero sets out on a quest, faces challenges, has a helper, is changed in some way, returns home - and used it to explore things that interest him: loneliness, what happens to morality when civilisation breaks down. Blind-casting is a bit of a red herring given it's a story, but anyway, the ancient Mediterranean was a melting pot of diversity and inter-relationships.
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STOPI thought the colour-blind casting was irrelevant to the quality of the movie. The acting was more important and I thought that was mostly very good. It is after all a myth and the story went through generations before being written down. The story-tellers would insert their own biases and Nolan has his too. He has tried to make a movie for our times and I think he succeeded. He certainly missed out a lot of sex and violence from what I've heard, but I've not read the Odyssey in any form so far. I did thoroughly enjoy the movie anyway.
I have also seen Oh Brother, Where Art Thou that is also based on the same myth. I've seen a version on The Simpsons too. Was Odysseus really yellow?
A movie is a piece of art and opinions will vary. This one got more publicity due to a certain person going on endlessly about the casting. He claims he can create a 'historically accurate' movie with AI. Maybe that can give us Helen's birth from an egg after her mother was raped by Zeus disguised as a swan.
So did I, actually. The quality, at least to me, was mediocre. As I did mention, I believe - I think any other casting choices in any of the roles wouldn't have made a difference. For what it's worth, I thought Matt Damon and Anne Hathaway were average, too.
Unfortunately, a lot of kind, empathetic, Liberal people tend to default to matters of fairness and equality. Why shouldn't a black actor be cast as Ulysses? Shouldn't everyone have equal chances? Does that mean, just because you're [insert race of your choice, minus Caucasian] you won't ever be able to be part of great artistic projects? Personally, I don't think that's how it should be at all. Nor did I say that, again. What I said is we're currently living in uneven times. Can you genuinely tell me there would be no media backlash if they staged a production about the Orisha, for instance, with a White and Hispanic cast? I doubt that. It would be appropriation and offensive to West African cultures. Which I agree with. I just don't understand the double-standard.
Seems to me we're a lot more worried about appropriating other people's cultures and not saying the wrong thing than about our own culture. Not usually good, that.
Yes, the Odyssey is a myth, but stories function heavily in terms of their audience. And myths, more importantly function through the cultures that believe and repeat them. Just as Hollywood has, in the past, loved to whitewash other cultures, it is now doing the same in reverse to Western culture. Which yes, is primarily fair-skinned, if only in our cultural imagery and symbols. The way we represent our history to ourselves, which is one of the building blocks of any ethnic groups and nation.
The image that what the hell, Europe and European culture and history was never primarily white anyway is for one inaccurate, and for another, dangerous to our sense of identity in the long run. If it wasn't yours in the first place, what's the harm in losing it. Something your country is, unfortunately, experiencing first-hand at present.
Personally, I had no clue Musk had talked about it until after I saw the movie. I still have no clue what he said, as I didn't bother to read the headlines. I don't care. I can't say I'm a fan and I think he's someone with problems making a lot of mistakes right now. Is it worrying that what one man says can create such a ruckus? Indeed it is. Didn't influence my opinion, which I went and formed for myself, just as you did yours. To wrap up, it was never (as it almost never is in modern Conservative or Centrist, more accurately, discourse) about racism or hating that they should cast black Helen. I don't care if they do blue Helen next. It's about the much deeper issue of sacrificing the myths and stories that have built the West on the altar of political correctness. Something other cultures would (wisely) not do, and something that is already biting us in the behind.
All that being said, glad you enjoyed the movie. I hope all your future movie-going experiences are as fruitful. Thanks for stopping by.
I'd probably be considered 'woke' by some people, but I'm not even sure what they mean by that. I don't think white European culture is under threat like some make out, but then some of them might not even approve of women in some roles in business and politics. That said, in a lot of old theatre women were not even allowed to act. I would say our culture has been mostly 'white', but has had lots of influences from other cultures. I think we should be less hung up on how people differ and care more about what we have in common. We've had enough issues with different white cultures going to war over differences in beliefs or politics and that still happens.
I think some people look for things to argue about, but I will continue to enjoy the cultural events I like. Life is too short for unnecessary debate.
Enjoy your movies too.
Thanks. I actually really enjoyed Flight of the Conchords, which I believe you recommended to Fish a while back. So thank you kindly for that.
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I've heard mixed reviews on the movie as well. I likely won't spend the money to go see it. I just don't get into movies like I used to. I've been finding myself reading more than watching lately.
Wouldn't spend money on it again, tbh. What you reading?
I'm reading two books right now. One is a crime novel in the Harry Bosch series by Michael Connelly called "A Darkness More Than Night". The other is an older book called about political extremists getting sent back to a penal colony in the pre Cambrian era. "Hawksbill Station".
The casting debate is an interesting one. It drives Jamie wild but I can let it go. Who is to say that trade didn't bring Asians and other cultures to Greek shores? And certainly, it'd be historically plausable - it wasn't an isolated white-euro world then but part of a network connecting continents through migration, trade and war, so I'd definitely shrug and let it go after the initital jarring. I also think back then race was looked at a lot differently to now. It's interesting to see how our reactions to race in the film probably are part of this current cultures way of seeing.
However it's probably more about how casting should serve the story, not become the story - we wouldn't debate over it if it was that great, because you'd forget the casting immediately. Jamie, for example, cannot watch anything with Matt Smith in it because he just, for some reason, can't stand him! I'm not that much of a Matt Damon fan, so this film isn't that high on my watch list. Still, I'd be a bit annoyed with Helen as black as she was always described as fair - so yeah, a bit of faitfulness to the original text is a bit better than this obvious and quite banal switcheroo. I mean, why?? - just as I'd think why Anne Hathaway and Matt Damon.
But ultimately, I can't help thinking that it's probably not even about the casting choices but the cultural moment we're living in now, right? First of all there was no diversity in film, now there's too much - like we do need to throw a black female James Bond possiblity in the mix, for goodness sake? We can certainly examine why we care about these details so much - it makes for good conversation and critique.
I can definitely side with those who see Odyssey as myth not a reconstruction of history - it's been translated, adapted and reshaped for thousands of years - as @steevc says "Odysseus was not yellow in The Simpsons" - every adaptation reflects the era behind it. In twenty years, I wonder if the casting will be different and what it will say about us then.
I'll choose not to watch it I reckon. It just doesn't interest me. I don't want my view of the Odyssey tarnished by Nolan, tyvm.
Oh absolutely, I don't think Ancient Greeks saw themselves in terms of race the way we modernly do. And of course, you let it go pretty quickly. I mean, it's a three hour movie. It'd feel like six if you were sitting there every time going "was there really an Asian guy at the temple, or on the ship or wherever".
I think people simplify the discussion and turn it into an empathy play mistakenly. Oh you didn't like Helen played by a black woman because you're racist and can't empathize with other creeds or races. Whereas, while some people still think this way I expect, I think we grossly overestimate their numbers. And in this particular case, the reason not to like black Helen (despite the cultural inaccuracy) is that she was a meh Helen.
Just like Hathaway was a meh Penelope. I wondered about the leads too, but frankly, with these big Hollywood names you just assume it's because they're big Hollywood names. I think Anne Hathaway is having a resurgence of some kind - she seems to be in a lot of movies and talked about. So maybe that's why. Matt Damon just has that reasonable guy face, you know? Maybe they wanted to convey Odysseus was a nice guy, idk. Can't imagine other reasons for him. Personally, I would've been way happier with an unknown cast (of whatever races) but with a mind-blowing film.
Matt Smith's the one who was or is Doctor Who right? I only saw him in House of Dragon, where I think he grows on you, but can definitely see why one wouldn't stand him. He has a face.
As for why these things matter to us so much, my guess would be it strikes at the core of our culture, which in turn is a very big part of who we are. Because what stories do people get upset about diverse casting? Sure, Conservatives argue against any movie staring a gay person or black person or whatever and accuse the film of being woke. Sure, but those don't usually bug us, as long as it's not a major story in our canon. Trying to think of the recent ones that riled people - Doctor Who, James Bond as you said, this one, Snow White. What do these have in common? They're old(ish) stories that we have placed at the core of our shared identity in some way. We object because we realize the sacrifice of this important (to us) story on an altar of political correctness. More primally, I think we feel threatened at a survivalist core because somewhere in us, we know that peoples whose culture is destroyed become extinguished.
The issue, of course, is big on the other side too, with people eagerly defending the right of any person of any race or gender to be in movies or whatever. That's an empathy play. We mostly are good people, despite these petty bickerings we engage in, and somehow have become convinced that's really a question in our times. Just like with COVID, the question suddenly was "are you a reasonable person or are you some crazy, dangerous conspiracy theorist?". We want to be on the good side, always, and we fundamentally are. We're being told obsessively that we have to should loudly, eagerly the right slogans or we are not viable members of society, and since it plays on our sense of self and on our empathy, it's a winner.
Unlike in 1984, it doesn't play on fear of punishment, but on fear of being perceived as foul and isolated from the village.(though arguably, the same is true there, albeit in a more violent state)
Anyway, sorry for the long comment. I love talking to you, and agreed, it's a fascinating subject I think we should be talking about more, not less. Just in a different way. Why do you get triggered if I say black Helen was meh. Or why do you get triggered if they cast black Helen in the first place. The way humans and society work is fascinating.
A bit like how people didn't see that Doctor Who COULD be a black man because he transforms every now and then, and could also have been a woman, and polysexual and if you're going that far, um, you get upset about that but not that a phone box is bigger on the inside? And yeah, he does have a face. I grew up on Doctor Who and when my son was younger we would watch it all the time. Good wholesome space time FUN.
I was talking to the librarian at lunchtime loved the Odyssey and was deeply irritated that Helen was cast as black. So was the entire staffroom - history and English teachers too - because Helen was meant to be fair. No one was annoyed about race exactly, even though Australians CAN be racist, just that it was so damn jarringly inaccurate and was nothing like their vision of Helen from everything they'd read and studied about her. Overall, they loved the film, and thought it well executed, but black Helen? Nfw.
I LIKE seeing more LGBTQI on the screen, and I know people get upset about that. I wonder why, exactly. Perhaps they feel threatened, or that they got some kind of free pass or token. I like that casting is more diverse - I mean it SHOULD be, because power is not just white and hetero male. I can see why people get grumpy about it, but perhaps they should consider what it felt like to never see a version of themselves represented on screen.
Look I don't mind Matt Damon. He's been around a long time. I just don't see him as epic. I haven't seen it yet so maybe I'm wrong. I think I'd rather an unknown than Good Will Hunting or The Martian. Anne Hathaway, meh anyway. At least it wasn't Margot Robbie - the entire staffroom was also disgusted by Wuthering Heights, and they wished Heathcliff was black, haha, which he could well have been.
It's absolutely ridiculous that we think these are hills we should die on. It's a fucking story. Find your identity in many things that make up your culture, right, and learn some history. Identity politics has got completely out of hand - divisive, and lacking complexity. As you know. It's one thing to dismiss as woke, right, and another to truly understand how we got to this point where inclusiveness is worth action ie casting decisions. Because, yes, empathy, but also realism - because our cultures are not pure and never have been. Even out myths across continents and time are similar. Also, as you say, equAlly valid to argue Helen didn't look at all like that - what if they'd made her disfigured, plump, short, AND black, god forbid?? Then we would be in a right pickle. You'd be offending people left right and centre.
I've been distancing myself more and more from Hollywood and the mainstream in general because I get tired of walking away feeling as if I wasted minutes/hours I'll never get back. Once you see the kind of social conditioning that's going on (and probably has for our entire lifetime) it's impossible to unsee it. I really couldn't care less if an actor's race doesn't match the original character they're playing but my main issue would be surrounding the question of why? If it's because the producer/director thinks the particular actor is the person best suited for the role then that's all good but if it's anything else then it just isn't genuine.